This is my first Post so I apologise if it doesnt meet the high standard we’re used to.
It has been proposed that School Pupils across Britain will have to pledge an oath of allegiance to the Queen. This has been put in place in an attempt to give students a sense of belonging, as well as increase a sense of ‘British-ness’. There is also discussion as to a ‘British National Holiday’.
I like the idea of attempting to create a national pride. I must say i do enjoy seeing all the Flags of St. George that appear everywhere just before England get beaten on Penalties in the football. But swearing an oath to the Queen seems to be to be a slightly empty attempt. I like the idea of a British Day; a chance to hold village fairs and get a day off work and just generally be proud to be British.
This proposition has come up with much opposition, especially outside of England. Some of this may be because of the Six Nations, especially after England have lost to both Wales and Scotland. But there is a problem with people who do not feel British being made to swear allegiance to the Queen.
As much as I respect the Queen, I don’t feel that forcing people to pledge allegiance will make students have any more sense of belonging. So I will avoid pledging my allegiance to the Queen, but I will enjoy a few cold ones at our British-ness Day. Anyone fancy joining me in a ’cheers’ to Britain?
A fine post from one of our most conservative members.
now heres a BULS post I can get on board with!… I can almost hear John Ritchie cry “abandon ship”!
I’ve just booked my ticket for the AGM. I’m organising the RON campaign for whatever position Reevo is standing for
what makes you think im standing for any position?
I would rather rip out my tongue and feed it to a corgie than swear allegience to the Queen.
Why on earth would I? What does she do for me in return for this? Continue to reign graciously over us? What a load of royal bollocks.
I am also, actually, quite sceptical about the idea of a ‘Britain day’. England invaded two parts of the UK and only got over its hatred of Scotland because we ran out of monarchs of our own. What exactly do we want to celebrate?
I think we make St Paddy’s, St David’s, St George’s and St Andrew’s (?) day big happy events which establish a celebration of each other. Not a history which is largely built on occupying parts of the world and being hated by the rest.
I’m on Gaz’s side.
*prepares to rip out tongue and looks round for spare corgi*
Pathetic. I think your blog should be focusing on more pressing issues… like that sorry excuse for a budget. (before you retort with “oh you would want an oath you are a tory… consult the blog… i too am opposed to an oath of a allegiance… but for legitmate reasons… not some chip on my shoulder)
*wonders whether to point out that this was written before the budget came out but decides she can’t be arsed to argue*
Im not talking about the post Brigid. I pretty much agree with the post. I am talking about your & gary’s sentiments.
meh. when you have no money and have never had any money and have no prospect any time soon of ever having any money sometimes you just dont care about money.
that and i have been far too busy wirting about fucking superconducting particle detectors today to really look at it.
Daniel OD,
Did you really just criticise someone for writing a post on something other than a pressing social/economic issue? Methinks DOD needs to check how many of his own recent posts have dealt with pressing social/economic issues and how many have been some ode to some “has been” octogenarian.
I think you’ll find BULS compares favourably.
Like Brij, I’ve not had time to analyse the budget (work and social life have beckoned), but without even looking at it, I’m fairly sure I could compare it favourably to most of those delivered by Messrs Howe, Lawson, Major, Lamont & Clarke. If one of my comrades are unable to muster up the energy to write about it, I’ll try to get something down myself over the next few days… without consulting either the Daily Mirror or the Daily Mail for analysis.
*goes off to sleep after a few too many rather socialist G&Ts*
hahaha touche Mr Ritchie.
P.S Bravo on the G&T’s
“meh. when you have no money and have never had any money and have no prospect any time soon of ever having any money sometimes you just dont care about money.
that and i have been far too busy wirting about fucking superconducting particle detectors today to really look at it.”
WTF?
i’m with gaz and brig on this. i will never swear on oath of allegiance to someone who has no earthly right to rule over me. the monarchy embarrases me!
Hi everyone.
Firstly, since I have been working 9-5 I have been out of the loop a bit, which has meant that for some reason I am asking somebody please, tell me who the hell this Dan person is?
Fair comment from Matt, but I had to pick up on the fact that someone who is lucky enough to be ignorant enough to say it was a pathetic budget, and to think one that his own party would pull out is so much better.
I also think ‘Dan’ is lucky enough to have grown up to think that the conservatives can make it all better. for those of us who come from families (like millions of people) that were either made homeless or unemployed by the Thatcher government, we know differently.
I’m proud to be in a party which introduced the NMW, whilst another party (who because they love the free market so much they think theyre amazing economists) thought it would cost millions of jobs – when in fact it created 3 million. and thats 3 million people who arent working for pittance and not able to provide for their family.
Anyone heard of the days when the police didnt have enough money to buy petrol for their cars? or when some wards suffered 50% unemployment?
What a blissful ignorance some of us live in.
*needs to go back to uni to drink off her anger
Lucy – marry me.
Jack – marry Brigid… anyone bullying someone as much as this must be hiding a secret infatuation.
Brigid – don’t be scared, it’ll wear off.
Lucy – Just a few points I wishh to make
1) police numbers have gone down under labour so donnt just pin it on the tories
2) the new hospital in selly oak will not be fully opened because they cant staff it when its complete!
3)blair, undoubtedly your best leader, and brown have continued with the same free market ideology that thatcher popularised!
4) Labour only got in to power… because they immitated the TORIES!
5) Remind me… how much Thatcher legislation have Labour reversed?.. oh yes.. NONE!
Ultimately Lucy I feel you have a chip on your shoulder… as do many of the left of the Labour party. Thatcher this TThatcher that! blah blah blah.. weve heard it all before.. do we continually moan about the mess Callaghan left for Thatcher to clean up?
Face it Thatcher was the leading force that led this country to become the economic strength it is today. Yes it was tough to begin with… but unfortuantely for some the ends justify the means. She took the decisions your spineless party should have took years previous and there were short term consequences… but be in no doubt we benefited in the long run.
In 1994 Labour went under a transition. They realised people didn’t give a damn about their policies… theyd rather elect a party that in your words “made millions homeless of unemployed”. Does that not tell you something? The only way “your” beloved party could get in the position it is in now… is by copying us!
Labour combined the economic policies of the tories with their own brand of sleaze and spin… the spin spoke of social democracy… but things haven’t imporoved in the leaps and bounds Blair promised. Finally I would also like to say… Thatcher made NO-ONE homeless.. I don’t recall losing our home under her… in fact I know no-one who did! Ultimately your arguments are ignorant of the facts and very much based on ill concieved personal predjudice and exaggeration.
Another fine piece of ignorance, DOD – you don’t really believe all that tosh, do you?
The more pressing question John is do you NOT believe it… or do you not want to ACCEPT it.
Oh god, its people like this who make me want to forget about democracy – just to stop their whining.
I think your comment…
‘Thatcher made NO-ONE homeless.. I don’t recall losing our home under her… in fact I know no-one who did! Ultimately your arguments are ignorant of the facts and very much based on ill concieved personal predjudice and exaggeration.’
…sums it up.
Wouldnt we all like to be in your position, where the whole country falling apart didnt affect you. I’m sure in your nice little detached house in a nice suburban street with your nice car and your nice drive, the 80s were great for you.
Just a pity there were people who couldnt afford to eat properly and had to live in shit holes because of people like you.
and ritchie, show me the money and itll be a maybe.
how painful it is to read the logic that, ‘I don’t recall losing our home under her… in fact I know no-one who did’, meaning that it cant possibly have happened. And to then turn around and suggest someone else is ignorant…
well back to the post…….
I do agree that we need more of a sense of belonging, we need to be proud of our communities therefore look after the area and each other. People need to have a real understanding of what their role is in society, that they can have both a detrimental and positive affect on all those around them. This would hopefully curb minor crimes like graffiti, shop lifting, bullying and anti-social behavior and make us unite as a supportive group.
Do I think swearing to the queen will do this………… NO.
I cringe when people swear an oath to the American flag.
‘I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all’
What I load of bullshit, liberty and justice for all hmmmmmmmmm.
Will ours be similar? Standing there saying how amazing everything is and how everyone is equal. I just think this is patronizing to all those people who are really suffering.
If we did have one it should be along the lines of:
I pledge allegiance to the queen of the British Empire for the income she brings to our economy through tourism
Before anything i do think we should revise our national anthem. Its not the most exciting of anthems really…
Some of the points you make are fair.. you are right… we did have it pretty easy under Thatcher. However, having read what I wrote previously I don’t think I made my point regarding people being homeless very well. What I meant was that what you said was an exaggeration and representative of a minority of the population. It is true a minority of people were unemployed, some (even less) were made homeless. This was in extreme cases and certainly not entirely down to thatcher. However I should also add we are a property owning democracy because of thatcher, she empowered many many people.
Having said this I am well aware certain people, a minority, did “suffer” if that is the correct word, however as far as I am concerned it was a short term consequence that unfortunately had to happen… sometimes we have to take a step back in order to move forward. My fundamental point is the country and its people are in a far better situation due to Thatcherite economics than they were under the Labour goernment of the 60′s & 70′s.
I acknowledge that this progress is not entirely down to Thatcher, indeed it required the support and collaboration of many individuals and undoubtedly New Labour has embraced her economic legacy to positive effect. However be in no doubt the economic success of Labour is, at very least in part, down to thatcher. She was the driving force behind the progress, and this is something that your own party acknowledge (the ones who matter at least)
It is also interesting to see that all of you have failed to deny that New Labour are the result of a “Thatcherite revolutiuon” if that is the correct word. This speaks volumes. You have picked at my own persoal opinions, which arguably could be flawed as they are merely opinions, but you have ignored the facts… about the police, the hospital, labour being diluted tory etc etc.
It is amusing to see how a post about a pledge of allegiance has progressed in to a full on Thatcherite debate sadly I believe there is no middle ground. You either love her or you hate her… and neither will be convinced otherwise. Perhaps we should leave it at that.
I should point out that “we did have it pretty under Thatcher” relates to me & my family… not we as a generic term.
‘It is true a minority of people were unemployed, some (even less) were made homeless’
can you not see that this is the major problem with tory politics.
benifits are not reaped by all
‘however as far as I am concerned it was a short term consequence that unfortunately had to happen… sometimes we have to take a step back in order to move forward.’
make sure to tell the peoples who it affected that their livelyhoods and piece of mind were sacarficed for the good of others and say thank you to them suffering whilst driving past in a nice car. oh and remember to tell them your a tory.
hear hear at Pippa. This debate will indeed continue for many moons to come, what I want to say is that, police numbers have gone up across the board with labour, as have teachers and nurses and doctors. I would like to see some evidence from you Dan to prove the opposite.
With Thatcher we saw the highest interest rates in decades, that affected many millions of people, including my grandad, who, after buying the council house he had lived in for over 40 years faced 15 years of astronomical debt.
3.4 million people were unemployed, that number is now hovering at just over 1 million.
what thatcher did succesfully was teach us that we’re not part of a community, we not bound together by our humanity, we are individuals who have a right to fight for our own gain and not even consider those left behind by economic misfortune.
I am so proud to carry a card in my pocket that contradicts all of that, by the strength of our common endeavour we achieve more together than we do alone!!
I’m torn. I’m going to make some controversial comments now. If you have a delicate disposition or are prone to thinking in entrenched ways you may wish to look away now.
I think everybody agrees that we need to build a stronger national identity. Matt mentioned this in his blog, Gaz talked about celebrating patron saints days but there have been no other solid suggestions about how we can build a stonger sense of national identity.
Why is a national identity important? Well i’m not a mad nationalist but some collective recognition with our community is invaluable. Whether it is for community cohension is areas where there are dynamic cultural changes we should encourage people to embrace rather then ignore or building a conscience of the plight of those in poverty and promoting social justice, this can only be done if people feel part of something bigger.
Next question is what does national identity mean? Quite simply I believe people should not be afraid to call themselves British. I’m going brace myself for a torpedo attack: with this comes claims that I think being British is better then anything else. Well I don’t. But i’m proud to be a Marley but that doesnt mean that I think my family is intrinically better then anyone else’s. I will admit there is a fine line here which is very easy to cross. But people will naturally be proud of their nation. Is it not better to engage with this emotion and foster something constructive rather then write off that person as a twat?
Let us recognise the fact that socially the US is quite a harmonious nation. I will immediately caveat that by pointing out that huge inequalities still exist and discrimination in the form of racism and homophobia is rife. But I wish to draw attention to immigrant communities in the US. Consider the fact that americans class themselves as Afro-Americans, Italian-Americans, Native Americans and you realise that when you scratch below the surface there is a common US identity. Whatever their cultural variations, as US citizens they identitfy as Americans.
Like arrogrant pricks we can deride this, belittle it, claim it is superficial and meaningless and carry on “sleepwalking into segragation”. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4270010.stm
So an oath of allegiance… to the nation, perhaps. To the Queen… I’m not sure.
Lets look again at the article, i’m sure we all read it and considered it deeply:
“It does make sense to promote a sense of shared belonging, a sense that you are part of a community with a common venture, to integrate better newcomers to our society and be clearer about what the rights and responsibilities are.
Lord Goldsmith said that while he favours an oath of allegiance to the Queen, the statement could be a pledge of commitment to the country or a statement of what the rights and responsibilities of citizens are.”
I agree not with the idea of an oath of allegiance to the queen but with a statment of rights and responsibilites, informing young people of their role in society. The fact the oath is made to the queen is in many ways meaningless. The oath informs young people of their rights and responsibilites and is aimed to make them feel like part of a community.
Anyone disagree?
I dont disagree but I feel that attempts at this have failed in the past. I remember the inclusion of one hour a week of ‘Citizenship’ to the curriculum. I cannot honestly say a single thing I learnt in that hour. Maybe that was the teaching, maybe it was the content I cant say. Does anyone else remember this in their school life? if so did it make you feel any more included in society? or make you aware of your social responsibilities?
Again I reiterate… where are the denials about Labours economic fortunes being the result of Thatcher? You won’t deny it because it can’t be denied. New Labour is the result of the Thatcher years. What has been reversed from the thatcher years? nothing. Who was the first person Blair invited to Downing st? Thatcher. Who was one of the first gordon invited? Thatcher. Who did gordon pose with… who did gordon claim to admire?! this list goes on. Yet Labour say nothing. If you are so concerned with what thatcher did to “your people” why do they let gordon get away with glorifying her? The man that openly aattacked annd cussed her politics in the 80′s is now embracing her when hes in power.
Also I want to pick up on this… “what thatcher did succesfully was teach us that we’re not part of a community, we not bound together by our humanity, we are individuals who have a right to fight for our own gain and not even consider those left behind by economic misfortune.”
Does britain feel like part of a community now? And since when have New Labour been so community minded? As far as I, and Im sure the majority of the British public are concerned, faith in politics is at its lowest levels, people see labour as nothing more than spin, they don’t care about social equality they are doing all they can to widen the gap between rich and poor! University is now only open to those who can afford it… and those who are willing to go in to astronomical debt! Thatcher did nothing by deception… can Labour say the same?
New Labour have been in power for 11 years yet little has been done to restore faith in politics and the membership are ignorant enough to harp on about “Thatcher this Thacther that” when they are only in power because they were forced to embrace her policies. Im sorry that is the truth of it… and surely even the most left among you can see that.
just a sec,
‘University is now only open to those who can afford it’……… i didnt have a penny to my name before i came to uni. I work through the holidays, bit of part time work here and there, i have less debt than most the people whos mummy and daddy pay for their housing. This is thanks to the govt so dont put that one out there.
Dan, any chance we could have a simple conversation without it having to be pro or anti labour.
).
This is a general conversation about how the situation could be taken forward not about how amazing the gvt is (even tho……
If you want to start a blog on why the torys are amazing feel free and im sure you will get some replies.
Should you have to work through the holidays to put yourself through uni? I thought Labour were meant to make everything more accessible… not less. The fact remains uni is expensive.. more so than ever before. You either have to work bloody hard to put yourself through uni, borrow copious amounts and leave with huge debt… or as you point out.. have wealthy relatives.
I am more than happy to have a debate that is not revolved around being pro labour or pro tory however some of your “comrades” may not reciprocate. (Although BULS peroccupy themselves with the Tories and what they are doing far more so than BUCF preoccupy themselves with Labour!)
I am afraid I will not write a post on “why the tories are great” because to be honest I accept my view is not neccessarily along “party lines” therefore it would not be entirely accurate. Perhaps some members of BUCF would be happy to write a blog… Im sure they would be more P.C and eloquent than myself.
“Jack – marry Brigid… anyone bullying someone as much as this must be hiding a secret infatuation.”
Well that would be one time when we WOULD agree to abort any children out of sympathy for our fellow human beings.
great. I spend half an hour carefully writing out my viewpoint and then you all ignore it!
Cheers
i replied, and it was mine that was in fact ignored, as my post has largely been anyway. *Feels sorry for self*
“great. I spend half an hour carefully writing out my viewpoint and then you all ignore it!”
I think a lot of people agree with it.